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Posted by John Pollard on April 23, 2007, 12:08 pm
Please log in for more thread options kirk wrote:
> wrote:
>> kirk wrote:
>>> wrote:
>>>> kirk wrote:
>>>>> On Apr 22, 6:20 pm, "John Pollard"
>>>>>> kirk wrote:
>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2:57 pm, "John Pollard"
>>>>>>>> kirk wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Apr 22, 2:40 pm, "John Pollard" wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> kirk wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Q07 Premier, WIN XP/Pro SP2
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Testing IRR reporting, so setup test account and
>>>>>>>>>>> experimented but keep getting as very curious
>>>>>>>>>>> result. Everytime I add a new test security
>>>>>>>>>>> (making sure that I've never used the security
>>>>>>>>>>> name before and that it is not in the Security
>>>>>>>>>>> List), it appears to "acquire" some Price
>>>>>>>>>>> History. I've tried this with six different
>>>>>>>>>>> security names and when I look into Security
>>>>>>>>>>> Detail, Price History, there are 2-4 prices for
>>>>>>>>>>> each security. They are on different dates for
>>>>>>>>>>> different amounts?
>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Anyone help on this?
>>>>>>>>>> What do you need help with? I don't see a
>>>>>>>>>> problem described.
>>
>>>>>>>>> I am adding new securities, there shouldn't be a
>>>>>>>>> price history?
>>
>>>>>>>> Every security that wasn't issued today has a price
>>>>>>>> history: see Yahoo, etc..
>>
>>>>>>>> Quicken includes some price history when it sets
>>>>>>>> up a security that is new to your specific Quicken
>>>>>>>> data; it has for some time ... actually, as long
>>>>>>>> as I can remember (though I confess, my memory is
>>>>>>>> not what it used to be). I still don't see a
>>>>>>>> problem? You are the first person I can ever
>>>>>>>> recall asking for "help" with this. You can
>>>>>>>> easily delete the prices if you don't want them.
>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> John Pollard
>>>>>>>> First initial underscore Last name at mchsi dot com
>>>>>>>> Please reply to newsgroup- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>>>>>> I am trying to do this to test IRR calculations for
>>>>>>> accounts that include corporate mergers.. So I am
>>>>>>> experimenting with a test accout and using
>>>>>>> ficticious security names like test1, test2,
>>>>>>> testnever, etc.. so that there couldn't be any
>>>>>>> price history. I have observed that IRR
>>>>>>> calculations are different for mergers depending on
>>>>>>> whether or not there is a price entered on the ADD
>>>>>>> SHARES transaction.
>>
>>>>>> Quicken does not - can not - download any prices for
>>>>>> a non-existant security - one that has no ticker
>>>>>> symbol.
>>
>>>>>> If you supply Quicken with a false security name,
>>>>>> but a real ticker symbol; Quicken doesn't care.
>>>>>> Never has. Quicken doesn't care what the name of the
>>>>>> security is - in fact, you can have multiple
>>>>>> security names with the same ticker symbol ... they
>>>>>> will all get the same "prices". So: if you add a
>>>>>> new security in Quicken with a totally phony name,
>>>>>> but with a real ticker symbol ... you will get
>>>>>> prices for the real-world security that has that
>>>>>> ticker symbol.
>>
>>>>>> While I'm not really clear what you can hope to
>>>>>> accomplish, I suggest you start by accepting the way
>>>>>> Quicken works.
>>
>>>>>> Then: if you need an empty price history for "test"
>>>>>> securities that have "real" ticker symbols, either:
>>
>>>>>> Do not supply a ticker symbol when you create the new
>>>>>> test security,
>>
>>>>>> or
>>
>>>>>> Delete the price history that Quicken downloads for
>>>>>> those test securities before you enter any test
>>>>>> transactions for those securities (but expect that
>>>>>> any time you do any download that includes prices,
>>>>>> you will see prices for any security in your Quicken
>>>>>> data that has a valid ticker symbol).
>>
>>>>>> (You can select multiple Quicken price history
>>>>>> records just as you would select multiple files in
>>>>>> Windows Explorer ... then click Delete to get rid of
>>>>>> them all.)
>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> John Pollard
>>>>>> First initial underscore Last name at mchsi dot com
>>>>>> Please reply to newsgroup- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>>>> I never used a ticker for any of these ficiticious
>>>>> securities, always "Added Manually"
>>
>>>>> I am experimenting with this simply because there is a
>>>>> difference in how Q treats ADD SHARES if there is a
>>>>> price given or not. If the ADD SHARES includes a
>>>>> price, then that transaction is reflected in the
>>>>> "Investments" column of the Investment Performance
>>>>> (IRR) report. If the ADD SHARES doesn't have a price,
>>>>> then Q does NOT reflect that in that column. The ADD
>>>>> SHARES have come from a number of mergers that have
>>>>> occurred in the past three months and the transactions
>>>>> downloaded from my FI's are using REMOVE SHARES/ADD
>>>>> SHARES to reflect the merger. (I believe) that none
>>>>> of these showed the actual cost basis (not sure I
>>>>> should expect the FI to include the cost basis) so I
>>>>> have had to manually adjust these transactions to
>>>>> reflect the actual cost (and hence get consistency
>>>>> for IRR calcs).
>>
>>>>> Now, I am happy to accept the the way Q works (as long
>>>>> as
>>>>> 1. its accuracte and 2. I can understand the "rules" -
>>>>> which are not always obvious) but - I cannot see why
>>>>> or where Q is adding price history to a ficticious
>>>>> security? If its doing that who knows what other
>>>>> things its up to? I can provider screenshots if
>>>>> needed.
>>
>>>>> /d
>>
>>>> From your original post:
>>
>>>> "Everytime I add a new test security (making sure that
>>>> I've never used the security name before and that it is
>>>> not in the Security List), it appears to 'acquire' some
>>>> Price History."
>>
>>>> The impression given by that statement was that the act
>>>> of adding the new security produced prices in your
>>>> price history ... so I explained how that could
>>>> happen. You didn't say that you only noticed prices
>>>> in your price history after you entered transactions.
>>
>>>> Now you say you are not supplying ticker symbols for
>>>> your test securities, and since Quicken can not
>>>> download any prices ("quotes" or "historical") for
>>>> securities that have no ticker symbol, I can deduce
>>>> what is happening.
>>
>>>> You are causing the prices to be entered in your price
>>>> history by entering transactions in your investment
>>>> account which have prices. Whenever you enter an
>>>> investment transaction in Quicken that contains a
>>>> security price, and there is no existing price for that
>>>> security in your price history for that date, Quicken
>>>> enters the price from the investment transaction into
>>>> your price history. This is normal behavior and has
>>>> been present from the first day I used Quicken.
>>
>>>> --
>>>> John Pollard
>>>> First initial underscore Last name at mchsi dot com
>>>> Please reply to newsgroup- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>>> "The impression given by that statement was that the act
>>> of
>>> adding the new security produced prices in your price
>>> history"
>>
>>> That's exactly what I'm observing. Let me summarize.
>>
>>> Check Securities List, ADD SHARES for a security name
>>> that doesn't exist (add manually without Ticker and
>>> without Price)
>>
>>> Check Summary tab for account, shows ONLY the Lot for
>>> the ADD'ed SHARES transaction (which had a zero Cost
>>> Basis since no price was entered)
>>
>>> Check Securities Detail, the *only* transaction in
>>> Transaction History for this security is the ADD SHARES,
>>> but Edit Price History shows one entry for a price of
>>> $67.265 on 2/22/06.
>>
>> Doesn't happen for me.
>>
>> Try creating a New Quicken file. Create the one
>> investment account and enter that one Add Shares
>> transaction.
>>
>>> In that TEST account there are no trannsactions date
>>> 2/22/06
>>
>> The account is immaterial. Price history pertains to all
>> transactions entered in any account. Likewise the
>> Security Detail screen.
>>
>>> For a FInd All of all transactions dates 2/22/06, there
>>> are a number of credit card and checking transactions,
>>> and some dividends ... nothing with a security name like
>>> the ficitious one I created. Checked for other ficitious
>>> security names that I'd ADD'ed.
>>
>> 1.) Once you enter an investment transaction that places
>> a price in the price history: even if you later delete
>> that investment transaction, the price will remain in
>> the price history.
>> 2.) Once you have prices in your price history for a
>> security, if you delete that security, then add it back
>> ... it's price history will be restored.
>>
>> So unless you have very carefully avoided ever creating
>> a new test security with the same name as any test
>> security you have ever created in that file before, you
>> have probably left a price history trail. This would be
>> immaterial if we were talking about real-world
>> securities since a valid price history is just as valid
>> after adding a real-world security back into your file
>> as it was before you deleted the security.
>>
>> Before you delete a security, you can select all the
>> prices in its price history and delete them all at once.
>> Then delete the security and re-add it and you should
>> get an empty price history.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> "You are causing the prices to be entered in your price
>>> history
>>> by entering transactions in your investment account
>>> which have prices. Whenever you enter an investment
>>> transaction in Quicken
>>> that contains a security price, and there is no existing
>>> price
>>> for that security in your price history for that date,
>>> Quicken
>>> enters the price from the investment transaction into
>>> your price history. This is normal behavior and has
>>> been present from the
>>> first day I used Quicken. "
>>
>>> So I really can't see where Q is pick these prices up
>>> from? From the above I do not believe that I am causing
>>> prices to be entered. It still looks to me like Q is
>>> incorrectly associating price history.
>>
>>> /d
>>
>> --
>>
>> John Pollard
>> First initial underscore Last name at mchsi dot com
>> Please reply to newsgroup- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> "So unless you have very carefully avoided ever creating
> a new
> test security with the same name as any test security you
> have
> ever created in that file before, you have probably left
> a price history trail."
> That's exactly what I did. The security had unique and
> random
> names ... never used before.
Pretty good memory to be able to guarantee that.
> I am working on the
> assumption that there is a bug in Q that is picking up
> prices from somewhere else.
I have never seen it, nor ever read of it.
> (I have no doubt that
> creating a new file, new account would circumvent this,
> since I *suspect* that price history file would be tied
> to a single file.)
If it doesn't happen in a new file, it's almost certainly not a
bug.
If you have some type of data corruption in your existing file,
it's possible that is involved.
> "This would be immaterial if we were talking
> about real-world securities since a valid price history
> is just
> as valid after adding a real-world security back into
> your file
> as it was before you deleted the security."
>
> Sure, but (BUT) I am trying to experiment with this to
> understand Q's behaviour and all I am looking for is help
> in understanding how/where Q is picking this price up
> from. As I have mentioned, Q treats the Investment
> Performance (IRR) report, differently if there is a
> security price in the ADD SHARES transaction or not.
>
> If the conclusion is that there is a bug in Q wrt picking
> up security prices when there are none, I can work around
> that. If I am doing something wrong (or if I am doing
> something that confuses Q), I'd like to know that so I
> can avoid this in the future.
I told you how you can work around it; delete the prices.
--
John Pollard
First initial underscore Last name at mchsi dot com
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