EIN vs. SSN (different numbering space)

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Subject Author Date EIN vs. SSN (different numbering space) TrippKnightly 07-27-2009  Re: EIN vs. SSN (different numbering space) Mark Bole 07-27-2009  Re: EIN vs. SSN (different numbering space) D. Stussy 07-27-2009  Re: EIN vs. SSN (different numbering space) Mark Bole 07-28-2009  Re: EIN vs. SSN (different numbering space) Phil Marti 07-28-2009  Re: EIN vs. SSN (different numbering space) Don Priebe 07-29-2009  Re: EIN vs. SSN (different numbering space) D. Stussy 07-29-2009  Re: EIN vs. SSN (different numbering space) Mark Bole 08-01-2009  Re: EIN vs. SSN (different numbering space) D. Stussy 08-02-2009  Re: EIN vs. SSN (different numbering space) Arthur Kamlet 08-02-2009  Re: EIN vs. SSN (different numbering space) Arthur Kamlet 07-29-2009  Re: EIN vs. SSN (different numbering space) HLunsford 07-31-2009  Re: EIN vs. SSN (different numbering space) D. Stussy 07-31-2009  Re: EIN vs. SSN (different numbering space) D. Stussy 08-02-2009  Re: EIN vs. SSN (different numbering space) Taxmanhog 08-01-2009  Re: EIN vs. SSN (different numbering space) Taxmanhog 08-01-2009
Posted by TrippKnightly on July 27, 2009, 7:05 pm Please log in for more thread options I've googled ad nauseum on this and can't seem to find a definitive answer. Do EINs and SSNs use different numbering space such that even though they are both 9-digit tax ID numbers (albeit dashes located in different places), you could never have an individual's SSN match an employer's EIN. Or, is it in fact something that can and does happen? If it does happen, is it rare or very common? I would think collisions if common could create all kinds of headaches for everybody. Thanks for any input. ========================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT: No collisions. But blocks belong to individuals, other blocks belong to EIN holders, others to ITIN holders, etc. -- << ------------------------------------------------------- >> << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >> << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >> << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >> << >> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >> << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >> << are at www.asktax.org. >> << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. >> << ------------------------------------------------------- >> Posted by Mark Bole on July 27, 2009, 8:14 pm Please log in for more thread options TrippKnightly wrote: > I've googled ad nauseum on this and can't seem to find a definitive > answer. Do EINs and SSNs use different numbering space such that even > though they are both 9-digit tax ID numbers (albeit dashes located in > different places), you could never have an individual's SSN match an > employer's EIN. > > Or, is it in fact something that can and does happen? If it does > happen, is it rare or very common? I would think collisions if common > could create all kinds of headaches for everybody. > > Thanks for any input. > > ========================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT: > No collisions. But blocks belong to individuals, other blocks > belong to EIN holders, others to ITIN holders, etc. > The following page provides a pretty good overview: http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=96696,00.html also see: http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=169067,00.html The following page gives a brief overview of the SSN and provides links to the SSA web site which also goes into more detail about how to detect valid SSNs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_security_number#Valid_SSNs Between these two sites, you can pretty much tell the difference between an SSN and an EIN based on just the first couple of digits. You didn't mention why you ask, but hopefully you are not planning to use any of these numbers as unique ID's in a database context, as that would be a Very Bad Idea. -Mark Bole -- << ------------------------------------------------------- >> << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >> << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >> << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >> << >> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >> << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >> << are at www.asktax.org. >> << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. >> << ------------------------------------------------------- >> Posted by D. Stussy on July 27, 2009, 11:38 pm Please log in for more thread options > I've googled ad nauseum on this and can't seem to find a definitive > answer. Do EINs and SSNs use different numbering space such that even > though they are both 9-digit tax ID numbers (albeit dashes located in > different places), you could never have an individual's SSN match an > employer's EIN. The dashes are REQUIRED as part of the value. That's how one tells them apart. Therefore, a properly formatted SSN or ITIN will never collide with an EIN. SSN and ITIN numberspaces are mutually exclusive. SSN and EIN numberspaces are NOT. > Or, is it in fact something that can and does happen? If it does > happen, is it rare or very common? I would think collisions if common > could create all kinds of headaches for everybody. > ========================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT: > No collisions. But blocks belong to individuals, other blocks > belong to EIN holders, others to ITIN holders, etc. That is insufficient to prevent collisions when dashes are omitted. -- << ------------------------------------------------------- >> << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >> << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >> << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >> << >> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >> << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >> << are at www.asktax.org. >> << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. >> << ------------------------------------------------------- >> Posted by Mark Bole on July 28, 2009, 10:12 am Please log in for more thread options D. Stussy wrote: > The dashes are REQUIRED as part of the value. That's how one tells them > apart. That's not how the IRS tells them apart, see below. > Therefore, a properly formatted SSN or ITIN will never collide with > an EIN. SSN and ITIN numberspaces are mutually exclusive. SSN and EIN > numberspaces are NOT. >> ========================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT: >> No collisions. But blocks belong to individuals, other blocks >> belong to EIN holders, others to ITIN holders, etc. > That is insufficient to prevent collisions when dashes are omitted. The e-file record layouts do not use dashes, so if indeed the set of SSN and EIN is not mutually exclusive (still not conclusively determined here, AFAICT), then it is the *context* that determines which is which, not dashes. A validation of such numbers is going to be made using the name of the entity, so it really does not make any difference to the IRS computer whether the sets are exclusive, or whether there are dashes -- that is strictly a human-readable issue. For example, according to Pub 1346, Part 2, the taxpayer SSN is 9 chars, while the EIN on Schedule C is also 9 chars -- no dashes in the e-file submission. This is also the case for every other form or schedule that uses a TIN. See excerpt below. [note the following will look better in fixed font] FORM 1040 PAGE 1 Field Identification Form Length Field Description No. Ref. ----- -------------- ---- ------ ----------------- 0003 Taxpayer 9 N (Primary SSN) Identification Number SCHEDULE C PAGE 1 Profit or Loss from Business Field Identification Form Length Field Description No. Ref. ----- -------------- ---- ------ ----------------- 0060 Employer ID D 9 N Number -Mark Bole -- << ------------------------------------------------------- >> << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >> << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >> << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >> << >> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >> << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >> << are at www.asktax.org. >> << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. >> << ------------------------------------------------------- >> Posted by Phil Marti on July 28, 2009, 2:51 pm Please log in for more thread options "Mark Bole" wrote: >> The dashes are REQUIRED as part of the value. That's how one tells them >> apart. > That's not how the IRS tells them apart, see below. > The e-file record layouts do not use dashes, so if indeed the set of SSN > and EIN is not mutually exclusive (still not conclusively determined here, > AFAICT), then it is the *context* that determines which is which, not > dashes. Correct. Things may have changed since I left the IRS, but back in the day we referred to "edited" and "unedited" TINs. Edited TINs include the hyphens and any suffix and can run as many as 12 characters. They are used when a human is going to view it. Unedited TINs are 11 digits and are what's stored in the database. They consist of the 9 digits of the number and 2 numeric indicators which provide the information needed to distinguish it from another TIN of the same 9 digits, as well as the information needed to format the TIN for human viewing. Phil Marti Clarksburg, MD -- << ------------------------------------------------------- >> << The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >> << nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >> << that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >> << >> << The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >> << to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >> << are at www.asktax.org. >> << Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. >> << ------------------------------------------------------- >> Similar Threads Posted rent expense-artist's live-work space February 12, 2007, 12:42 am