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Subject Author Date
Estate Taxes blaha 04-03-2008
  |--> Re: Estate Taxes Stuart Bronstei...04-11-2008
  |   `--> Re: Estate Taxes Stuart Bronstei...04-05-2008
    `--> Re: Estate Taxes removeps-groups...04-04-2008
Posted by Drew on April 5, 2008, 11:28 am
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> blaha@triad.rr.com wrote:
> ...
>> Your right - it may not be worth getting into it with the
>> appraiser.
>> We are over the exclusion limit, so ther will be a tax
>> bill to pay.
>> To that extent, there is a desire to reduce the tax bill,
>> but it's a
>> smuch the principle of the situation as anything else.
>> I've got a set
>> of Civil War books, the appraiser says is worth $1500. I
>> can see the
>> same set on eBay for $250. I don't have the time or
>> inclination to
>> find this elusive market where people will pay $1500 for
>> these books,
>> but it seems I'm really at the mercy of the appraiser for
>> the value.
>> No, I don't believe he has any vested interest in pricing
>> them too
>> high. In all, it seems we could challenge maybe $3 - $4K
>> in value,
>> saving 45% in taxes. Not a significant amount as far the
>> whole estate
>> is concerned, but the $1500 or so in savings is a pretty
>> good hourly
>> wage for me if it can be saved.
> ...
> Don't see why you're hostage to the appraiser if you have
> valid other data (how comparable the eBay listings are to
> what you have would be at least one question as previously
> noted), but he has an opinion; you have an opinion.
>
> The executor should be able to decide whose data to use in
> compiling the information for the estate return--don't see
> there's any reason you would have to use the appraiser's
> figures alone.
>
> Again, whether there's sufficient to be saved for the
> trouble is another call.

If the estate is going to use a different number than the
appraiser's then they should file a form 8275 indicating it
is taking a position contrary that has less than a 1/3
chance of being upheld. On the one hand the IRS and the
court has a qualified appraiser with a qualified appraisal.
On the other it has a page from eBay with no information on
how knowledgeable the eBay seller is, what it will
ultimately sell for, the comparable conditions of the
appraised items, etc. One data point on eBay and a wealth
of experience on the other. Who do you think the IRS and
the Courts will believe. To overcome the appraiser I think
you need another appraiser to come in. Not worth the fees I
would think. Also not worth it to file the form 8275. I am
not saying the appraiser is right, we all make mistakes, but
an eBay auction is insufficient data to overcome a qualified
appraisal.

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Posted by Seth on April 6, 2008, 12:19 am
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>If the estate is going to use a different number than the
>appraiser's then they should file a form 8275 indicating it
>is taking a position contrary that has less than a 1/3
>chance of being upheld. On the one hand the IRS and the
>court has a qualified appraiser with a qualified appraisal.
>On the other it has a page from eBay with no information on
>how knowledgeable the eBay seller is, what it will
>ultimately sell for, the comparable conditions of the
>appraised items, etc. One data point on eBay and a wealth
>of experience on the other.

On one hand, a supposed expert who claims a value (but certainly
wouldn't pay anything like that).

On the other hand, an actual sale by auction, meeting the definition
of Fair Market Value.

> Who do you think the IRS and the Courts will believe.

I would believe reality in preference to a so-called expert, unless
the expert is willing to back up his claim with cash (e.g. if he won't
buy it for $1,000, how credible is his claim that it's worth $1,500?)

Seth

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<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
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Posted by Drew on April 7, 2008, 7:01 pm
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>
>>If the estate is going to use a different number than the
>>appraiser's then they should file a form 8275 indicating
>>it
>>is taking a position contrary that has less than a 1/3
>>chance of being upheld. On the one hand the IRS and the
>>court has a qualified appraiser with a qualified
>>appraisal.
>>On the other it has a page from eBay with no information
>>on
>>how knowledgeable the eBay seller is, what it will
>>ultimately sell for, the comparable conditions of the
>>appraised items, etc. One data point on eBay and a wealth
>>of experience on the other.
>
> On one hand, a supposed expert who claims a value (but
> certainly
> wouldn't pay anything like that).
>
> On the other hand, an actual sale by auction, meeting the
> definition
> of Fair Market Value.

One sale is not fair market value. How do you know the eBay
seller isn't desperate for cash? How do you know they
aren't an idiot (no insult intended to the eBay seller).
You don't. Your term "supposed expert" is an insult to all
qualified appraisers. Obviously you haven't spent any time
reading court opinions and IRS rulings about how they view
appraisers opinions versus other data.

>> Who do you think the IRS and the Courts will believe.
>
> I would believe reality in preference to a so-called
> expert, unless
> the expert is willing to back up his claim with cash (e.g.
> if he won't
> buy it for $1,000, how credible is his claim that it's
> worth $1,500?)

Reality? One data point versus a qualified appraiser's
years of experience. Get 20 actual sales from eBay and then
come back. Even then you can't compare the conditions which
a qualified appraiser would do. Why does the appraiser have
to be willing to buy it for his/her opinion to be correct?
Unless the appraiser is in the business of buying and
selling used books or was a collector of such books why
would he want to buy it and then have to deal with the
hassle of selling it?

Drew Edmundson, CPA
Cary, NC

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Posted by dpb on April 7, 2008, 8:55 pm
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Drew wrote:
...
> Reality? One data point versus a qualified appraiser's
> years of experience. Get 20 actual sales from eBay and then
> come back. Even then you can't compare the conditions which
> a qualified appraiser would do. Why does the appraiser have
> to be willing to buy it for his/her opinion to be correct?
> Unless the appraiser is in the business of buying and
> selling used books or was a collector of such books why
> would he want to buy it and then have to deal with the
> hassle of selling it?

OTOH, if there are a number of the same item(s) available for auction on
eBay, that tends to discount that these would be highly valuable items.

Whether the value is at or near the appraiser's assigned value would
seem questionable if there is such a large discrepancy w/o other
compensating factors which aren't given.

What is there to say the particular appraiser in question is "qualified"
and are there no appraisers who simply aren't very good? would be a
counter argument...

I don't doubt that if the question became an issue in court that there
would be a significant prejudice towards an appraiser's estimate to
overcome.

--

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
<< Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. >>
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Posted by Drew on April 8, 2008, 9:50 am
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> Drew wrote:
> ...
>> Reality? One data point versus a qualified appraiser's
>> years of experience. Get 20 actual sales from eBay and
>> then come back. Even then you can't compare the
>> conditions which a qualified appraiser would do. Why
>> does the appraiser have to be willing to buy it for
>> his/her opinion to be correct? Unless the appraiser is in
>> the business of buying and selling used books or was a
>> collector of such books why would he want to buy it and
>> then have to deal with the hassle of selling it?
>
> OTOH, if there are a number of the same item(s) available
> for auction on eBay, that tends to discount that these
> would be highly valuable items.
>
> Whether the value is at or near the appraiser's assigned
> value would seem questionable if there is such a large
> discrepancy w/o other compensating factors which aren't
> given.
>
> What is there to say the particular appraiser in question
> is "qualified" and are there no appraisers who simply
> aren't very good? would be a counter argument...
>
> I don't doubt that if the question became an issue in
> court that there would be a significant prejudice towards
> an appraiser's estimate to overcome.

There are bad appraisers just like there are bad CPAs,
attorneys, engineers, doctors, programmers, hamburger
flippers, etc. To overcome the appraiser's value you have
to prove that he is wrong and one data point isn't going to
do it. How do we even know the eBay seller actually has
these books? We don't.

Do I know if this appraiser is qualified, no I don't, but I
am going to make the assumption that the OP didn't just ask
a drinking buddy but hired a licensed appraiser. So until
someone can prove he/she is not qualified I am going to
believe so. One eBay posting for sale doesn't do it. I am
not a big eBay shopper but I have seen prices all over the
place for the same thing. So how do I know that the CPU is
worth $X when I see it offered for $5 to $150? Heck I see
people selling used books on Amazon for twice Amazon's price
for new. Where do they get off doing that and who is
overpaying?

Drew Edmundson, CPA
Cary, NC

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
<< Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. >>
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>

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