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Subject Author Date
Estate Taxes blaha 04-03-2008
  |--> Re: Estate Taxes Stuart Bronstei...04-11-2008
  |   `--> Re: Estate Taxes Stuart Bronstei...04-05-2008
    `--> Re: Estate Taxes removeps-groups...04-04-2008
Posted by BeanTownSteve on April 8, 2008, 10:08 am
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>SNIP<
> One sale is not fair market value. How do you know the eBay
> seller isn't desperate for cash? How do you know they
> aren't an idiot (no insult intended to the eBay seller).
> You don't. Your term "supposed expert" is an insult to all
> qualified appraisers. Obviously you haven't spent any time
> reading court opinions and IRS rulings about how they view
> appraisers opinions versus other data.
>
> >> Who do you think the IRS and the Courts will believe.
>
> > I would believe reality in preference to a so-called
> > expert, unless
> > the expert is willing to back up his claim with cash (e.g.
> > if he won't
> > buy it for $1,000, how credible is his claim that it's
> > worth $1,500?)
>
> Reality? One data point versus a qualified appraiser's
> years of experience. Get 20 actual sales from eBay and then
> come back. Even then you can't compare the conditions which
> a qualified appraiser would do. Why does the appraiser have
> to be willing to buy it for his/her opinion to be correct?
> Unless the appraiser is in the business of buying and
> selling used books or was a collector of such books why
> would he want to buy it and then have to deal with the
> hassle of selling it?
> SNIP<

Coming back in here, here's a good point. A qualified, experienced
appraiser isn't
going to be an "expert" in everything. While the value here is
relatively small, would not
a professional obtain a secondary opinion to make his client feel more
confident in the
appraisal process? Maybe I'm too Pollyanna but that's what I'd
consider if I were in
the position. Even if he simply asked a colleague to do a favor.

I can't shake the feeling that this thread, and the heir, has put more
cumulative time into the
issue than the appraiser has.

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Posted by Drew on April 8, 2008, 7:36 pm
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> wrote:
>>SNIP<
>> One sale is not fair market value. How do you know the
>> eBay
>> seller isn't desperate for cash? How do you know they
>> aren't an idiot (no insult intended to the eBay seller).
>> You don't. Your term "supposed expert" is an insult to
>> all
>> qualified appraisers. Obviously you haven't spent any
>> time
>> reading court opinions and IRS rulings about how they
>> view
>> appraisers opinions versus other data.
>>
>> >> Who do you think the IRS and the Courts will believe.
>>
>> > I would believe reality in preference to a so-called
>> > expert, unless
>> > the expert is willing to back up his claim with cash
>> > (e.g.
>> > if he won't
>> > buy it for $1,000, how credible is his claim that it's
>> > worth $1,500?)
>>
>> Reality? One data point versus a qualified appraiser's
>> years of experience. Get 20 actual sales from eBay and
>> then
>> come back. Even then you can't compare the conditions
>> which
>> a qualified appraiser would do. Why does the appraiser
>> have
>> to be willing to buy it for his/her opinion to be
>> correct?
>> Unless the appraiser is in the business of buying and
>> selling used books or was a collector of such books why
>> would he want to buy it and then have to deal with the
>> hassle of selling it?
>> SNIP<
>
> Coming back in here, here's a good point. A qualified,
> experienced
> appraiser isn't
> going to be an "expert" in everything. While the value
> here is
> relatively small, would not
> a professional obtain a secondary opinion to make his
> client feel more
> confident in the
> appraisal process? Maybe I'm too Pollyanna but that's
> what I'd
> consider if I were in
> the position. Even if he simply asked a colleague to do a
> favor.
>
> I can't shake the feeling that this thread, and the heir,
> has put more
> cumulative time into the
> issue than the appraiser has.

My first step would have been to ask the appraiser to look
at the eBay posting and any other evidence I had and
politely asked him to reconsider his opinion. But if he
wouldn't change his mind then I would use his value or pay
for another appraisal (only if cost effective). Perhaps the
OP has already done this and not gotten satisfaction.

Drew Edmundson, CPA
Cary, NC

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
<< Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. >>
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>

Posted by removeps-groups@yahoo.com on April 8, 2008, 9:55 pm
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> One sale is not fair market value. How do you know the eBay
> seller isn't desperate for cash? How do you know they
> aren't an idiot (no insult intended to the eBay seller).
> You don't.

Maybe the eBay seller was desperate for cash, but that's part of FMV.
The market of sellers includes people who want to make a profit and
put their money into new investments, people who want to sell stuff to
pay for college, people who want to sell stuff because they need to
pay for heat, etc. Whatever the underlying motive, that's irrelevant;
the bottom line is that the price they sell for is FMV. Simarly, when
I sell stock I own because I need to pay for something (whether it's
for a wedding, to pay a tax bill, whatever), the only thing that
matters for tax purposes is the price I sold it at.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
<< Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. >>
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>

Posted by Drew on April 10, 2008, 10:08 am
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> wrote:
>
>> One sale is not fair market value. How do you know the
>> eBay
>> seller isn't desperate for cash? How do you know they
>> aren't an idiot (no insult intended to the eBay seller).
>> You don't.
>
> Maybe the eBay seller was desperate for cash, but that's
> part of FMV.

No it isn't.

> The market of sellers includes people who want to make a
> profit and
> put their money into new investments, people who want to
> sell stuff to
> pay for college, people who want to sell stuff because
> they need to
> pay for heat, etc. Whatever the underlying motive, that's
> irrelevant;
> the bottom line is that the price they sell for is FMV.
> Simarly, when
> I sell stock I own because I need to pay for something
> (whether it's
> for a wedding, to pay a tax bill, whatever), the only
> thing that
> matters for tax purposes is the price I sold it at.

>From the charitable contribution regulations Reg §
1.170A-1(c)(2) "The fair market value is the price at which
the property would change hands between a willing buyer and
a willing seller, neither being under any compulsion to buy
or sell and both having reasonable knowledge of relevant
facts." Note "no compulsion" in the regulation. So motive
is a key element. The law is the law and telling me how the
law should be doesn't help. But you have gone off on a
tangent. Appraisal from a qualified appraiser trumps an
eBay listing. That is just the way it is. If you don't
like the appraisal then get another expert to tell you the
first appraiser is wrong or gather a whole lot of other
evidence than just a random eBay listing (no insult intended
to the OP).

Drew Edmundson, CPA
Cary, NC

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
<< Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. >>
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>

Posted by Seth on April 10, 2008, 1:31 pm
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>From the charitable contribution regulations Reg §
>1.170A-1(c)(2) "The fair market value is the price at which
>the property would change hands between a willing buyer and
>a willing seller, neither being under any compulsion to buy
>or sell and both having reasonable knowledge of relevant
>facts." Note "no compulsion" in the regulation. So motive
>is a key element. The law is the law and telling me how the
>law should be doesn't help. But you have gone off on a
>tangent. Appraisal from a qualified appraiser trumps an
>eBay listing.

What about an eBay _sale_? The eBay sale meets the definition in the
regulations, and I don't see anything in the quoted regulations about
a qualified appraiser trumping the definition.

I agree that the listing is irrelevant; I know lots of cases where
someone listed an item for a low price in order to attract interest,
and expected it to sell for much more (and did get an order of
magnitude more than the mininum).

Seth

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
<< Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. >>
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>

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