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Re: Is Landlord Double Dipping?

 

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Re: Is Landlord Double Dipping? joetaxpayer 04-16-2008
Posted by joetaxpayer on April 16, 2008, 2:20 pm
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Victor Roberts wrote:
> Here's a tax question posed to me by my son regarding some
> of his friends.
>
> Tenants of a rental property improve the property. The cost
> of labor plus materials is $6000. Their landlord pays them
> for the improvements by forgiving $6000 in rent payments.
> The landlord issues a 1099-MISC for the $6000 cost of the
> improvements to the tenants.
>
> I understand that the tenants are obligated to pay
> self-employment taxes on that portion of the $6000 that
> represents their labor. (That is, the amount left over
> after they deduct the cost of purchased materials from the
> $6000 total on their Schedule C.
>
> However, it seems that the landlord is getting to count the
> $6000 as a deduction twice. First, he is obviously
> deducting the $6000 as a maintenance or capital improvement
> expense, or else he would not have issued the 1099-MISC.
> Second, since he received $6000 less in rental receipts we
> are assuming that he did not record as income the $6000 he
> did not receive.
>
> If he did not record the non-received $6000 as rental income
> yet did deduct the $6000 as a maintenance or capital
> improvement expense, would you agree that he has taken twice
> the deduction he would be allowed?

I had an AC unit fail. It was worth exactly two month's rent. The tenant
kindly handled the HVAC guy, and skipped two months. I claimed 12
month's rent on my Sch E, and added the AC unit as a capital
improvement, and started the depreciation.

Your son's friends are worse off. They now have a 1099. Even though they
should pay tax on the labor, it seems they have a 1099 for the full
amount. Landlord sounds like he slimed them.
Joe

www.blog.joetaxpayer.com

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Posted by Mark Bole on April 16, 2008, 7:58 pm
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joetaxpayer wrote:

> Victor Roberts wrote:
>> Here's a tax question posed to me by my son regarding some
>> of his friends.
>> Tenants of a rental property improve the property. The cost
>> of labor plus materials is $6000.

"Cost of labor" is not the correct term, unless the tenants hired an
employee or subcontractor to do the work. Your own labor is not a cost
to you, for tax purposes.

> Their landlord pays them
>> for the improvements by forgiving $6000 in rent payments.


He didn't forgive any rent. It was a bartering (cashless) business
transaction, with a fair market value of $6,000 (determined by two
parties with adverse economic interests in an arm's-length transaction).
As already noted, each side had $6,000 of income.


>> I understand that the tenants are obligated to pay
>> self-employment taxes on that portion of the $6000 that
>> represents their labor.

The self-employment tax is based on their net profit, not just their
labor. If they were smart and added a mark-up to the materials(1), they
pay SE tax on that too. If their net profit was low enough
(approximately $433), they won't even owe that, just income tax.

(That is, the amount left over
>> after they deduct the cost of purchased materials from the
>> $6000 total on their Schedule C.

And after they also deduct any other ordinary and necessary business
expenses, such as business use of a vehicle to pick up materials and
supplies for the job, small hand tools, etc.

[...]
> Your son's friends are worse off. They now have a 1099. Even though they
> should pay tax on the labor, it seems they have a 1099 for the full
> amount. Landlord sounds like he slimed them.

Not really. If they had paid the rent in cash from wage income, they
still would have paid (directly and indirectly through their employer)
full FICA taxes on the equivalent labor. They also didn't have to incur
non-deductible expenses such as commuting, as they would with wage
income. Plus, they were able to schedule the work at their own
convenience, rather than have their privacy and peaceful enjoyment
interrupted by the schedule of some outside contractor hired by the
landlord.

(1) not sure if that would trigger a sales tax obligation for the
mark-up, assuming they paid sales tax on their purchase price.

-Mark Bole

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Posted by D. Stussy on April 16, 2008, 11:51 pm
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> joetaxpayer wrote:
> > Victor Roberts wrote:
> >> Here's a tax question posed to me by my son regarding some
> >> of his friends.
> >> Tenants of a rental property improve the property. The cost
> >> of labor plus materials is $6000.
>
> "Cost of labor" is not the correct term, unless the tenants hired an
> employee or subcontractor to do the work. Your own labor is not a cost
> to you, for tax purposes.
>
> > Their landlord pays them
> >> for the improvements by forgiving $6000 in rent payments.
>
>
> He didn't forgive any rent. It was a bartering (cashless) business
> transaction, with a fair market value of $6,000 (determined by two
> parties with adverse economic interests in an arm's-length transaction).
> As already noted, each side had $6,000 of income.

And under this view, the 1099-MISC is the wrong document to file for the
transaction. 1099-B is the correct document. However, see below.

> >> I understand that the tenants are obligated to pay
> >> self-employment taxes on that portion of the $6000 that
> >> represents their labor.
>
> The self-employment tax is based on their net profit, not just their
> labor. If they were smart and added a mark-up to the materials(1), they
> pay SE tax on that too. If their net profit was low enough
> (approximately $433), they won't even owe that, just income tax.
>
> (That is, the amount left over
> >> after they deduct the cost of purchased materials from the
> >> $6000 total on their Schedule C.
>
> And after they also deduct any other ordinary and necessary business
> expenses, such as business use of a vehicle to pick up materials and
> supplies for the job, small hand tools, etc.
>
> [...]
> > Your son's friends are worse off. They now have a 1099. Even though they
> > should pay tax on the labor, it seems they have a 1099 for the full
> > amount. Landlord sounds like he slimed them.
>
> Not really. If they had paid the rent in cash from wage income, they
> still would have paid (directly and indirectly through their employer)
> full FICA taxes on the equivalent labor. They also didn't have to incur
> non-deductible expenses such as commuting, as they would with wage
> income. Plus, they were able to schedule the work at their own
> convenience, rather than have their privacy and peaceful enjoyment
> interrupted by the schedule of some outside contractor hired by the
> landlord.
>
> (1) not sure if that would trigger a sales tax obligation for the
> mark-up, assuming they paid sales tax on their purchase price.

How is this a business transaction for the tenant? There's no FICA taxes
involved here. The landlord paid NOTHING (i.e. no check was issued), so the
1099 is erroneous. The tenant made a leasehold improvement, but we don't
know if it's permanent or will be removed when the lease is up, so there's
nothing TO the landlord either.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
<< Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. >>
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Posted by Seth on April 17, 2008, 1:02 am
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>> > Victor Roberts wrote:

>> >> Their landlord pays them
>> >> for the improvements by forgiving $6000 in rent payments.
. . .
>How is this a business transaction for the tenant? There's no FICA taxes
>involved here. The landlord paid NOTHING (i.e. no check was issued), so the
>1099 is erroneous. The tenant made a leasehold improvement, but we don't
>know if it's permanent or will be removed when the lease is up, so there's
>nothing TO the landlord either.

I don't think a landlord would foregive $6,000 of rent in return for
improvements that will be taken by the tenant, do you?

The tenant made improvements, in return for $6,000 worth of rent.

Seth

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
<< Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. >>
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>

Posted by D. Stussy on April 17, 2008, 11:29 pm
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> >> > Victor Roberts wrote:
> >> >> Their landlord pays them
> >> >> for the improvements by forgiving $6000 in rent payments.
> . . .
> >How is this a business transaction for the tenant? There's no FICA taxes
> >involved here. The landlord paid NOTHING (i.e. no check was issued), so
the
> >1099 is erroneous. The tenant made a leasehold improvement, but we don't
> >know if it's permanent or will be removed when the lease is up, so
there's
> >nothing TO the landlord either.
>
> I don't think a landlord would foregive $6,000 of rent in return for
> improvements that will be taken by the tenant, do you?

Probably not but stranger things have happened.

> The tenant made improvements, in return for $6,000 worth of rent.

Which is NOT a disbursement by the landlord. Regardless, it was the
purchase (and incidental installation) of an asset, and that's not
1099-Misc-able.

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
<< Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. >>
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>

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