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Re: Is Landlord Double Dipping?

 

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Subject Author Date
Re: Is Landlord Double Dipping? Mark Bole 04-17-2008
Posted by Mark Bole on April 17, 2008, 4:38 pm
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Harlan Lunsford wrote:
> Victor Roberts wrote:
[...]
>>>>>> Tenants of a rental property improve the property. The cost
>>>>>> of labor plus materials is $6000. Their landlord pays them
>>>>>> for the improvements by forgiving $6000 in rent payments.
[..,.]
>>>>>> However, it seems that the landlord is getting to count the
>>>>>> $6000 as a deduction twice. First, he is obviously
>>>>>> deducting the $6000 as a maintenance or capital improvement
>>>>>> expense, or else he would not have issued the 1099-MISC.
>>>>>> Second, since he received $6000 less in rental receipts we
>>>>>> are assuming that he did not record as income the $6000 he
>>>>>> did not receive.
[...]
> I'm not sure the OP was clear on this point. But are/is the lessee
> actually in business and renting business premises from the lessor?
>
> That's the impression I got anyway.

I assumed they were residential tenants and the landlord in a passive
rental activity. I also assumed that this deal was agreed-to in advance
via an arm's-length transaction.

But regardless of business vs. residential, and regardless of what kind
of 1099 was or was not issued, the tenants received $6K rental value for
doing something they anticipated would cost them less than $6K to
provide -- otherwise, why would they do it? I use "cost" here in the
economic sense, not the tax sense.

Therefore they have gross income of $6K in a for-profit activity and owe
taxes on the net profit. If they totally miscalculated and have
legitimate expenses (for example, accidental breakage) that actually
exceed $6K, they would have a business loss (which might inspire them to
close up shop and never try that business again).

But for the month or two they did the work, they were in business (or
else they were employees of the landlord, but let's not go there).

The landlord also received $6K rental income, against which he can
deduct some combination of repair expenses and depreciable capital
improvements which add up to $6K (so, no, he is not double dipping).

It was a barter exchange. See the first two paragraphs under "Bartering"
and Example 4 on page 18 of 2007 Pub 525, which is almost exactly this
same scenario. In Example 4, the tenant is an artist, which could be
either a hobby or a business. It seems unlikely to me that the tenants
in our example do this kind of thing as a hobby.

-Mark Bole

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Posted by dpb on April 17, 2008, 6:31 pm
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Mark Bole wrote:
...
> I assumed they were residential tenants and the landlord in a passive
> rental activity. I also assumed that this deal was agreed-to in advance
> via an arm's-length transaction.
>
> But regardless of business vs. residential, and regardless of what kind
> of 1099 was or was not issued, the tenants received $6K rental value for
> doing something they anticipated would cost them less than $6K to
> provide -- otherwise, why would they do it? I use "cost" here in the
> economic sense, not the tax sense.
>
> Therefore they have gross income of $6K in a for-profit activity and owe
> taxes on the net profit. If they totally miscalculated and have
> legitimate expenses (for example, accidental breakage) that actually
> exceed $6K, they would have a business loss (which might inspire them to
> close up shop and never try that business again).
>
> But for the month or two they did the work, they were in business (or
> else they were employees of the landlord, but let's not go there).
>
> The landlord also received $6K rental income, against which he can
> deduct some combination of repair expenses and depreciable capital
> improvements which add up to $6K (so, no, he is not double dipping).
>
> It was a barter exchange. See the first two paragraphs under "Bartering"
> and Example 4 on page 18 of 2007 Pub 525, which is almost exactly this
> same scenario. In Example 4, the tenant is an artist, which could be
> either a hobby or a business. It seems unlikely to me that the tenants
> in our example do this kind of thing as a hobby.

I don't see anything at all out of the ordinary for a couple guys who
are relatively handy essentially volunteering some work to make
improvements for cost irrespective of their day jobs. I certainly did
it often enough as a young pup right out of school when $$ were tight
and it was easier to get something improved if could do it oneself
rather than expect the landlord to deal with something that really
wasn't necessarily broke, just could be better.

In those days, never had a 1099 issued, but they were simpler times and
landlords weren't professional landlords, either; just renting an
earlier house or even earlier a widow lady taking in students in the
basement of her house...

--

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<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
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<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
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<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
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Posted by Mark Bole on April 17, 2008, 10:04 pm
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dpb wrote:
[...]
> I don't see anything at all out of the ordinary for a couple guys who
> are relatively handy essentially volunteering some work to make
> improvements for cost irrespective of their day jobs. I certainly did
> it often enough as a young pup right out of school when $$ were tight
> and it was easier to get something improved if could do it oneself
> rather than expect the landlord to deal with something that really
> wasn't necessarily broke, just could be better.

Me too, same thing, but I was still in school. Being ignorant of the
tax law nearly thirty years ago, I might have even failed to report the
bartering income on my paper-and-pencil prepared return, thank goodness
the statue of limitations has expired. But you have to ask, why was the
landlord willing to forgo the rent, unless he thought the repair was an
ordinary and necessary business expense to justify the rates he charged?
Oh wait, maybe he was ignorant of the tax law too...


> In those days, never had a 1099 issued, but they were simpler times and
> landlords weren't professional landlords, either; just renting an
> earlier house or even earlier a widow lady taking in students in the
> basement of her house...

Those 1099's are a real pain to issue, especially since you can't
download them from the IRS web site (not scannable). You really have to
go to some trouble to issue one...

-Mark Bole

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<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
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Posted by dpb on April 18, 2008, 7:06 am
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Mark Bole wrote:
> dpb wrote:
> [...]
>> I don't see anything at all out of the ordinary for a couple guys who
>> are relatively handy essentially volunteering some work to make
>> improvements for cost irrespective of their day jobs. ...
>
> Me too, same thing, but I was still in school. Being ignorant of the
> tax law nearly thirty years ago, I might have even failed to report the
> bartering income on my paper-and-pencil prepared return, thank goodness
> the statue of limitations has expired. But you have to ask, why was the
> landlord willing to forgo the rent, unless he thought the repair was an
> ordinary and necessary business expense to justify the rates he charged?
> Oh wait, maybe he was ignorant of the tax law too...

I certainly was ignorant of the law at the time and am absolutely
certain I didn't report anything as income in these instances... :)

In this case I doubt the landlord is particularly ignorant -- he figured
I expect he's getting a deal as well in that it would probably have cost
more than the $6K to have hired the work professionally...

>> In those days, never had a 1099 issued, but they were simpler times
...

> Those 1099's are a real pain to issue, especially since you can't
> download them from the IRS web site (not scannable). You really have to
> go to some trouble to issue one...

Not really that much trouble unless you try to mimic the fancy graphical
layout. They don't have to look like the IRS-printed forms; simply have
to contain the proper data and the right box numbers. I did them in
simple spreadsheets while still consulting (for subcontractors).

--

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
<< Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. >>
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>

Posted by removeps-groups@yahoo.com on April 18, 2008, 7:07 am
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> Those 1099's are a real pain to issue, especially since you can't
> download them from the IRS web site (not scannable). You really have to
> go to some trouble to issue one...

What are you talking about?

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f1099msc.pdf

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
<< Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. >>
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>

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