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Subject Author Date
What can a Roth IRA own? Dick Adams 04-20-2008
Posted by Dick Adams on April 20, 2008, 1:06 pm
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Under what conditions can a Roth IRA own an LLC which
owns equity shares in unlisted companies including S-Corps
and closely-held corporations?

The person who asked me this question wants to invest in
small businesses in his community. He also wants to make
sure he stays as far away from self-dealing as possible.

Can this be done?

Dick
- A few people actually think I know taxes.

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Posted by Harlan Lunsford on April 20, 2008, 3:25 pm
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Dick Adams wrote:
> Under what conditions can a Roth IRA own an LLC which
> owns equity shares in unlisted companies including S-Corps
> and closely-held corporations?
>
> The person who asked me this question wants to invest in
> small businesses in his community. He also wants to make
> sure he stays as far away from self-dealing as possible.
>
> Can this be done?
>
> Dick
> - A few people actually think I know taxes.
>
first, people should actually know that you know a few taxes. (grin)

But to the question. Why the extra step of an LLC? Nothing to be gained.

Finding a trustee for such a ROTH IRA will be the tricky part, for
the plan has to be IRS approved to say the least. I doubt one's local
bank could help, not even a large one with a fancy trust department.

Perhaps a full service brokerage house could be consulted.

ChEAr$,
Harlan

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<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
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Posted by Dick Adams on April 20, 2008, 9:28 pm
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> Dick Adams wrote:

>> Under what conditions can a Roth IRA own an LLC which
>> owns equity shares in unlisted companies including S-Corps
>> and closely-held corporations?
>>
>> The person who asked me this question wants to invest in
>> small businesses in his community. He also wants to make
>> sure he stays as far away from self-dealing as possible.
>>
>> Can this be done?

>> - A few people actually think I know taxes.

> first, people should actually know that you know
> a few taxes. (grin)

True, there are a few taxes I know well. But just
a few.

> But to the question. Why the extra step of an LLC?
> Nothing to be gained.

The reason I was given was the limited liability.
But as long as the investments are corps or limited
partnerships, that problem should not exist.

> Finding a trustee for such a ROTH IRA will be
> the tricky part, for the plan has to be IRS
> approved to say the least. ...

I think you have hit the hammer on the thumb here.
This sounds like a roll-your-own trustee situation
with high fees. Where does one find the IRS
approval documentation? I'll inundate him with
paper and give him a month of reading.

An equally large issue is the avoidence of
self-dealing in such a plan.

Dick

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
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Posted by Harlan Lunsford on April 20, 2008, 10:27 pm
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Dick Adams wrote:

(snipped.
>
> I think you have hit the hammer on the thumb here.
> This sounds like a roll-your-own trustee situation
> with high fees. Where does one find the IRS
> approval documentation? I'll inundate him with
> paper and give him a month of reading.
>
> An equally large issue is the avoidence of
> self-dealing in such a plan.

I'm quite sure that IRS has not aproved any prototype plan
for quite this situation. But there are plans for owning
securities in any companies, so that is not the problem.
Finding a willing custodian/trustee is the problem.

Self dealing would be no problem just as long as he or any
company he controlled had no dealings with those selected.
After all, it's just ownership of stock which wouldn't in itself
help one of those companies.

ChEAr$,
Harlan

p.s. just watched a show about the Cubs, and everyone interviewed
referred to not IF the Cubs ever win the world series, but WHEN.

Given your past comments I just wonder; IF I wound up with two tickets
to game seven and offered you one, would you take it?

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
<< Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. >>
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Posted by Dick Adams on April 21, 2008, 7:13 am
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> Dick Adams wrote:

>> I think you have hit the hammer on the thumb here.
>> This sounds like a roll-your-own trustee situation
>> with high fees. Where does one find the IRS
>> approval documentation? I'll inundate him with
>> paper and give him a month of reading.
>
>> An equally large issue is the avoidance of
>> self-dealing in such a plan.

> I'm quite sure that IRS has not approved any
> prototype plan for quite this situation. But
> there are plans for owning securities in any
> companies, so that is not the problem. Finding
> a willing custodian/trustee is the problem.

Where are the qualifications and rules for being
a custodian?

> Self dealing would be no problem just as long
> as he or any company he controlled had no
> dealings with those selected. After all, it's
> just ownership of stock which wouldn't in itself
> help one of those companies.

This question was asked of me by an accountant.
Based on the above statement, am I correct in
inferring that he could not be the accountant
compiling monthly financials and preparing tax
returns for companies in which his Roth had
invested even if he exercized no management
functions?

Dick

And now to the non-tax-related delusions of mi amigo:
> p.s. just watched a show about the Cubs, and
> everyone interviewed referred to not IF the Cubs
> ever win the world series, but WHEN.

Next time change the channel! ;)

I suspect these interviews were held in the vicinity
of the garbage can whose flames were providing
warmth for the interviewees while they passed around
a bottle of fortified wine. My answer would be that
any specific NL team has, by random chance, a 5/16th
chance of being in the playoffs, a 1/8th chance of
winning the playoffs, and thus an annual 5/128th
(.039036) chance of even being in the World Series.
That is a 60% probability over the next 23 years for
any specific NL team. And for winning the WS, it's
36.47% over the next 23 years.

Considering the Chicago Chokers of Wrigley Graveyard
infamy have had only 16 winning seasons over the last
60 years (and six of those were in the Durocher years
(1967-1972), I would cut that probability of them
being in a WS at 30% and winning it at 15%. Of course,
these odds would change if they moved out of that
cracker jack ballpark and into a major league ballpark.
Unless that happened, I'll lay a 750ml bottle of Jack
Daniels Single Barrel against an equivalent bottle of
your choice of Scotch that Windy City Whuses do not
win a WS by 2030.

I expect the only Major League team in Chicago, YOUR
Chicago White Sox, will win two more World Series by
2030.

> Given your past comments I just wonder; IF I wound up
> with two tickets to game seven and offered you one,
> would you take it?

Harlan, I would be honored to attend any baseball game
with a valued colleague. I would accept the ticket and
attend UNLESS I had to sit near Commissioner Kevorkian!
I would, of course, root for the AL team - even if it
was Darth Vader's contempable Bronx Street Urchins.

Best regards,

Dick

--
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
<< Copyright (2007) - All rights reserved. >>
<< ------------------------------------------------------- >>

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