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Subject Author Date
new roof on rental property way222 02-17-2007
Posted by BeanTownSteve on February 18, 2007, 9:32 pm
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<snip>
> Whether it's roofs or water heaters, one is simply removing
> a worn-out component from basis and replacing it with a new
> component of the same kind. For example, in a personal
> residence, each roof simply replaces the old (removed) one
> in the basis, and each water heater likewise. For personal
> use it's not deductible, for rental use it's an expense.
>
> This is distinct from an improvement, where the useful life
> is*extended*, so for example the excess cost of added
> "Super-Duper-Water-Heater" over removed
> "plain-old-water-heater" would be added to basis or
> depreciated, respectively.
>
> This conclusion is based on something I read in Pub 523:
> "You put wall-to-wall carpeting in your home 15 years ago.
> Later, you replaced that carpeting with new wall-to-wall
> carpeting. The cost of the old carpeting you replaced is no
> longer part of your home's adjusted basis."
>
> -Mark Bole

Let's look at what the publication 551 actually says...
Table 1. Examples of Increases and Decreases (table edited,
only partial and does not include any decreases,
BeanTownSteve) to Basis Increases to Basis

Capital improvements:
Putting an addition on your home
Replacing an entire roof <______
Paving your driveway
Installing central air conditioning
Rewiring your home

Roof replacement is a capital expenditure, lifetime of over
one year and materially extends the life of the property.
This is different than roof repair. If you elect to replace
a roof rather than repair it, the replacement is STILL an
improvement.

Your carpet example is a bit off, it actually says the cost
of the REMOVED carpet is no longer part of the cost
basis,sorta logical. Argument can be made that carpet is a
decorating item in any event, carpet does NOT extend the
life of the asset, although it too is listed in the pub as
an improvement.

A review of Pub 523 and 551 is in order.

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<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
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<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
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<< Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. >>
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Posted by Mark Bole on February 19, 2007, 2:01 pm
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BeanTownSteve wrote:

> Roof replacement is a capital expenditure, lifetime of over
> one year and materially extends the life of the property.
> This is different than roof repair. If you elect to replace
> a roof rather than repair it, the replacement is STILL an
> improvement.
>
> Your carpet example is a bit off, it actually says the cost
> of the REMOVED carpet is no longer part of the cost
> basis,sorta logical. Argument can be made that carpet is a
> decorating item in any event, carpet does NOT extend the
> life of the asset, although it too is listed in the pub as
> an improvement.
>
> A review of Pub 523 and 551 is in order.

And Pub 527 as well. That pub specifically mentions water
heaters, wall-to-wall carpeting, and "new roof" as examples
of improvements.

I must admit upon re-reading my own post I was spurred on to
further research... only to come up fruitless and confused.
After all, what is a "roof"? The shingles? The supporting
timber framing? The plywood sheathing? The nails? Or, for a
new "metal roof" which meets the energy-saving credit
requirements, what is the boundary between the roof and the
rest of the dwelling?

A few things come to mind: let's say I've lived in a
primary residence for several decades and am on my third new
water heater, and first "new roof". Does my basis include
four water heaters and two roofs? What about a rental, does
the answer change?

Two quotes:

"The median age of a home in the U.S. is 32 years, meaning
half of all homes were younger and half older than 32. That
median age is projected to continue to increase."
(http://www.franchise1.com/articles/article.asp?articleid=167)

"According to the Homeownership Alliance, the average age of
the American home will rise to 37 years by 2013."
(http://www.cygnusb2b.com/mediakits/QR_mk.pdf)

So, does replacing a 10-year water heater or 15-year roof
really extend the useful life of a property that might
reasonably last sixty years or more under normal conditions?

I suppose this discussion comes up every year... pointers to
the archives are welcome.

-Mark Bole

<< ======================================================= >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
<< Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. >>
<< ======================================================= >>

Posted by Harlan Lunsford on February 19, 2007, 8:26 pm
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Mark Bole wrote:
> BeanTownSteve wrote:

>> Roof replacement is a capital expenditure, lifetime of over
>> one year and materially extends the life of the property.
>> This is different than roof repair. If you elect to replace
>> a roof rather than repair it, the replacement is STILL an
>> improvement.
>>
>> Your carpet example is a bit off, it actually says the cost
>> of the REMOVED carpet is no longer part of the cost
>> basis,sorta logical. Argument can be made that carpet is a
>> decorating item in any event, carpet does NOT extend the
>> life of the asset, although it too is listed in the pub as
>> an improvement.
>>
>> A review of Pub 523 and 551 is in order.

> And Pub 527 as well. That pub specifically mentions water
> heaters, wall-to-wall carpeting, and "new roof" as examples
> of improvements.
>
> I must admit upon re-reading my own post I was spurred on to
> further research... only to come up fruitless and confused.
> After all, what is a "roof"? The shingles? The supporting
> timber framing? The plywood sheathing? The nails? Or, for a
> new "metal roof" which meets the energy-saving credit
> requirements, what is the boundary between the roof and the
> rest of the dwelling?
>
> A few things come to mind: let's say I've lived in a
> primary residence for several decades and am on my third new
> water heater, and first "new roof". Does my basis include
> four water heaters and two roofs? What about a rental, does
> the answer change?
>
> Two quotes:
>
> "The median age of a home in the U.S. is 32 years, meaning
> half of all homes were younger and half older than 32. That
> median age is projected to continue to increase."
> (http://www.franchise1.com/articles/article.asp?articleid=167)
>
> "According to the Homeownership Alliance, the average age of
> the American home will rise to 37 years by 2013."
> (http://www.cygnusb2b.com/mediakits/QR_mk.pdf)
>
> So, does replacing a 10-year water heater or 15-year roof
> really extend the useful life of a property that might
> reasonably last sixty years or more under normal conditions?
>
> I suppose this discussion comes up every year... pointers to
> the archives are welcome.

The roof, yes, adds to basis. The hot water heaters,
however, are personal property and depreciated over 7 years
time, maybe 5 years, but probably not like rental furniture;
I think without looking it up.

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA

<< ======================================================= >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
<< Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. >>
<< ======================================================= >>

Posted by Gil Faver on February 19, 2007, 2:01 pm
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> <snip>

>> Whether it's roofs or water heaters, one is simply removing
>> a worn-out component from basis and replacing it with a new
>> component of the same kind. For example, in a personal
>> residence, each roof simply replaces the old (removed) one
>> in the basis, and each water heater likewise. For personal
>> use it's not deductible, for rental use it's an expense.
>>
>> This is distinct from an improvement, where the useful life
>> is*extended*, so for example the excess cost of added
>> "Super-Duper-Water-Heater" over removed
>> "plain-old-water-heater" would be added to basis or
>> depreciated, respectively.
>>
>> This conclusion is based on something I read in Pub 523:
>> "You put wall-to-wall carpeting in your home 15 years ago.
>> Later, you replaced that carpeting with new wall-to-wall
>> carpeting. The cost of the old carpeting you replaced is no
>> longer part of your home's adjusted basis."

> Let's look at what the publication 551 actually says...
> Table 1. Examples of Increases and Decreases (table edited,
> only partial and does not include any decreases,
> BeanTownSteve) to Basis Increases to Basis
>
> Capital improvements:
> Putting an addition on your home
> Replacing an entire roof <______
> Paving your driveway
> Installing central air conditioning
> Rewiring your home
>
> Roof replacement is a capital expenditure, lifetime of over
> one year and materially extends the life of the property.
> This is different than roof repair. If you elect to replace
> a roof rather than repair it, the replacement is STILL an
> improvement.
>
> Your carpet example is a bit off, it actually says the cost
> of the REMOVED carpet is no longer part of the cost
> basis,sorta logical. Argument can be made that carpet is a
> decorating item in any event, carpet does NOT extend the
> life of the asset, although it too is listed in the pub as
> an improvement.
>
> A review of Pub 523 and 551 is in order.

keep in mind IRS publications are the IRS interpretation of
the law. A review of the actual law, and court
interpretations of the law, is in order. replacing a roof is
a repair, and does not extend the useful life of the
building. Buildings generally last through several new
roofs, at least.

<< ======================================================= >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
<< Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. >>
<< ======================================================= >>

Posted by Harlan Lunsford on February 19, 2007, 8:26 pm
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Gil Faver wrote:
>> <snip>

>>> Whether it's roofs or water heaters, one is simply removing
>>> a worn-out component from basis and replacing it with a new
>>> component of the same kind. For example, in a personal
>>> residence, each roof simply replaces the old (removed) one
>>> in the basis, and each water heater likewise. For personal
>>> use it's not deductible, for rental use it's an expense.
>>>
>>> This is distinct from an improvement, where the useful life
>>> is*extended*, so for example the excess cost of added
>>> "Super-Duper-Water-Heater" over removed
>>> "plain-old-water-heater" would be added to basis or
>>> depreciated, respectively.
>>>
>>> This conclusion is based on something I read in Pub 523:
>>> "You put wall-to-wall carpeting in your home 15 years ago.
>>> Later, you replaced that carpeting with new wall-to-wall
>>> carpeting. The cost of the old carpeting you replaced is no
>>> longer part of your home's adjusted basis."

>> Let's look at what the publication 551 actually says...
>> Table 1. Examples of Increases and Decreases (table edited,
>> only partial and does not include any decreases,
>> BeanTownSteve) to Basis Increases to Basis
>>
>> Capital improvements:
>> Putting an addition on your home
>> Replacing an entire roof <______
>> Paving your driveway
>> Installing central air conditioning
>> Rewiring your home
>>
>> Roof replacement is a capital expenditure, lifetime of over
>> one year and materially extends the life of the property.
>> This is different than roof repair. If you elect to replace
>> a roof rather than repair it, the replacement is STILL an
>> improvement.
>>
>> Your carpet example is a bit off, it actually says the cost
>> of the REMOVED carpet is no longer part of the cost
>> basis,sorta logical. Argument can be made that carpet is a
>> decorating item in any event, carpet does NOT extend the
>> life of the asset, although it too is listed in the pub as
>> an improvement.
>>
>> A review of Pub 523 and 551 is in order.

> keep in mind IRS publications are the IRS interpretation
> of the law. A review of the actual law, and court
> interpretations of the law, is in order. replacing a roof
> is a repair, and does not extend the useful life of the
> building. Buildings generally last through several new
> roofs, at least.

That particular case which allowed a roof as repair; wasn't
it based on the fact that the whole roof was suddenly and
maybe catostrop..c..ly (sp?) destroyed? And thus the new
roof was immediately essential?

Now, what WAS the name of that case?

ChEAr$,
Harlan Lunsford, EA n LA

Moderator:
My recollection is that the Tax Court decided the property
was not rentable because the roof was leaking. I can't
recall the name either, but we all know my memory ain't
what it use to be.

<< ======================================================= >>
<< The foregoing was not intended or written to be used, >>
<< nor can it used, for the purpose of avoiding penalties >>
<< that may be imposed upon the taxpayer. >>
<< >>
<< The Charter and the Guidelines for submitting posts >>
<< to this newsgroup as well as our anti-spamming policy >>
<< are at www.asktax.org. >>
<< Copyright (2006) - All rights reserved. >>
<< ======================================================= >>

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